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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:11 pm

USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.

Before u talk out ur ass make sure u can make a valid comparison...a lexus or toyota is not a neon!!!! I think i know a little about neons/srt4 to make my statement...just a little!!! Ask the 99% of srt4 or neon owners that have run e85 for sometimes how their sending units are doing then lmk....

you are the one obviously talking out of your ass since you have "friends " that have had units fail. If you have some valuable info please share since you are some type of Dodge Neon SRT guru. Pics ? any debree from the tank ? and by the way Lexus is a Toyota smart guy.

Not going to get into a pissing match with u.....me Srt guru? Well i do own The Florida SRT Forum for those pos neons .....so yeah i know a little about them....just ask Devin aka lilblkmachine or peacockpirate which are members here that goes by magic something ....... About those clunkers on.e85, i am out
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:16 pm

Stockness wrote:

Not going to get into a pissing match with u.....me Srt guru? Well i do own The Florida SRT Forum for those pos neons .....so yeah i know a little about them....just ask Devin aka lilblkmachine or peacockpirate which is memeber here that goes by magic something ....... About those clunkers on.e85, i am out

What pissing match ? we are trying to help Frank make the correct choice. Everyone here posted there experience and view ,then you come in here with some " Ethanol will destroy everything , dont do it " comment , yet you fail to make any valid points. I think the one that should be done is me , since you make absolutely no sense.
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bambinov8
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:20 pm

OP , . If you have a way to log A/F ratios and knock, you could try adding a little E85 (maybe a gallon to your next fill up) and monitor the cars response. If everything looks ok, you could go to as much as 2 gallons per fill-up. I would not recommend going beyond that without retuning for the fuel.

If you want to stay safe and conservative, I would recommend no more than 1 gallon per full tank. Adding that one gallon to 11 of 91 will increase your fuel's octane from 91 to ~92.2. Adding 2 gallons to 10 of 91 will increase your fuel's octane from 91 to ~93.3. E85 requires ~30% more fuel than gasoline, so if you are tuned for 11:1 AFR, with 1 gallon added you will lean out to ~11.2:1, 2 gallons added will lean you out to ~11.4:1. If you are tuned more aggressively than that, your A/F ratios will be even leaner.

The other concern is your closed loop fueling. If you add too much E85, you may end up with a check engine light for "system too lean". Because of the additional fuel volume required with E85, the closed loop fuel trims may go out of range trying to bring you back to stoichiometric (14.7:1 gasoline equivalent A/F ratio).

Well, this should be enough information for you to make an educated decision on what to do on that untuned / no wideband neon:)
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:25 pm

bambinov8 wrote:
OP , . If you have a way to log A/F ratios and knock, you could try adding a little E85 (maybe a gallon to your next fill up) and monitor the cars response. If everything looks ok, you could go to as much as 2 gallons per fill-up. I would not recommend going beyond that without retuning for the fuel.

If you want to stay safe and conservative, I would recommend no more than 1 gallon per full tank. Adding that one gallon to 11 of 91 will increase your fuel's octane from 91 to ~92.2. Adding 2 gallons to 10 of 91 will increase your fuel's octane from 91 to ~93.3. E85 requires ~30% more fuel than gasoline, so if you are tuned for 11:1 AFR, with 1 gallon added you will lean out to ~11.2:1, 2 gallons added will lean you out to ~11.4:1. If you are tuned more aggressively than that, your A/F ratios will be even leaner.

The other concern is your closed loop fueling. If you add too much E85, you may end up with a check engine light for "system too lean". Because of the additional fuel volume required with E85, the closed loop fuel trims may go out of range trying to bring you back to stoichiometric (14.7:1 gasoline equivalent A/F ratio).

Well, this should be enough information for you to make an educated decision on what to do on that untuned / no wideband neon:)

Well put my friend , well put.
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bambinov8
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:27 pm

USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:

Not going to get into a pissing match with u.....me Srt guru? Well i do own The Florida SRT Forum for those pos neons .....so yeah i know a little about them....just ask Devin aka lilblkmachine or peacockpirate which is memeber here that goes by magic something ....... About those clunkers on.e85, i am out

What pissing match ? we are trying to help Frank make the correct choice. Everyone here posted there experience and view ,then you come in here with some " Ethanol will destroy everything , dont do it " comment , yet you fail to make any valid points. I think the one that should be done is me , since you make absolutely no sense.
agreed ! Only few people can really give proper info and most of them are the ones running the corn for years like myself n you and others .. I do recommend a acid neutralizer oil for a daily used flex fuel car ...E85 can be harsh on the oil


Last edited by bambinov8 on April 11th 2012, 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:27 pm

USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:

Not going to get into a pissing match with u.....me Srt guru? Well i do own The Florida SRT Forum for those pos neons .....so yeah i know a little about them....just ask Devin aka lilblkmachine or peacockpirate which is memeber here that goes by magic something ....... About those clunkers on.e85, i am out

What pissing match ? we are trying to help Frank make the correct choice. Everyone here posted there experience and view ,then you come in here with some " Ethanol will destroy everything , dont do it " comment , yet you fail to make any valid points. I think the one that should be done is me , since you make absolutely no sense.


Let me slow it down for u.......i deal with this clunckers or a daily...so i speak with experience and day by day hand ons with pos srt4s n neons....e85 will kill ur fuel sending unit !fact not opinion....ur rubber lines wont like e85 for long time use and eventually ur injectors will clogged and then the fun begins with random misfires.....on long term use of e85....I speak in regards to Neons/Srt4s not ur lexus...so Frank do as u please as its ur car
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bambinov8
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:43 pm

Stockness wrote:
USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.

Before u talk out ur ass make sure u can make a valid comparison...a lexus or toyota is not a neon!!!! I think i know a little about neons/srt4 to make my statement...just a little!!! Ask the 99% of srt4 or neon owners that have run e85 for sometimes how their sending units are doing then lmk....
I truly think you have been brainwashed with wrong info about ethanol ... Check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:44 pm

Well that post was well put together, and that being said; 11.1-30% fuel by the E-85= lean by 3.33=14.33 A/F which tells me that my car with a full tank of E-85 including the + 30% added fuel by the stock ecu and without the proper tuning my car will be running lean at wot conditions.

So since i am not going to spend money tuning a 2.0L non turbo neon for my everyday driving, i will just jump right back to my 87octane regular fuel. lol! But Thanks guys for the debate.. Lets leave the E-85 super fuel for my GT500.
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:48 pm

bambinov8 wrote:
Stockness wrote:
USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.

Before u talk out ur ass make sure u can make a valid comparison...a lexus or toyota is not a neon!!!! I think i know a little about neons/srt4 to make my statement...just a little!!! Ask the 99% of srt4 or neon owners that have run e85 for sometimes how their sending units are doing then lmk....
I truly think you have been brainwashed with wrong info about ethanol ... Check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Who said it would harm engines? Read again !!! I say fuel sending units and fuel lines ON NEONS!!!!
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:50 pm

For the ones that quoted me......do any of you own/owned e85 neons/srt4?
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bambinov8
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:02 pm

Stockness wrote:
For the ones that quoted me......do any of you own/owned e85 neons/srt4?
This is not about who owns a neon , is about the statement u made that ethanol eat rubber lines which in fact is a pure myth at is finest .. The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free of issues
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peacockpirate
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:05 pm

Frank what year neon is it? Sockness does have retarded amounts of experience w/ neon/srt4s and works on them/gives repair advice on pretty much a daily basis. So he isn't just throwing nonsense out there. I haven't seen any first gen neons on e85 so i'm not sure how their fuel system will handle it, but the second gens fuel system does not last long. The sending unit goes bad on all of them. Sometimes it's the first fill up sometimes is months later, but it goes bad. I hang out at a pretty well known srt shop and i've seen the corrosion done to the rubber lines and the gunk that gets clogged in the injectors. There are some pics of guys that have used e85 and showed how nasty the injectors got I will try and find them to add further evidence. Frank I suggest you just stay with 87. I did put e 85 in my first gen once or twice and only like 1-2 gallons, but I would never suggest to daily it on that. With out an extrememly good tune the gas mileage will go to crap compared to what it is now and like u said it's not worth tuning a stock 2.0.
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:07 pm

bambinov8 wrote:
Stockness wrote:
For the ones that quoted me......do any of you own/owned e85 neons/srt4?
This is not about who owns a neon , is about the statement u made that ethanol eat rubber lines which in fact is a pure myth at is finest .. The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free of issues

U dont own one . So thank you.....
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peacockpirate
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:16 pm

Here are some pics of e85 on a neon.

QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 IMG_0272
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QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 DSCF1321
QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 DSCF1319
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:29 pm

^^ those are nice pics but explain to me how the ethanol pretty much desintegrated the rubber and it made it through the injectot and caused the combustion chamber to look like that ? since that is what your are insinuating right .You are trying to tell me RUBBER made it into the 1300*F-1700*F and looks just like that ? come on , those plugs even show peppering on the porcelin from detonation. That seems like some oil conatmination in the cylinder , maybe rings, oil from the turbo , or blow by. Or maybe Neons are POS ??i dont think so . I think there is much more that isnt said about this pic. Again this is from my experince which i fully understand is not related to Neons but combustion engines in general. I have seen BRAND NEW Audi 2.0T heads look exactly the same from " oil consumption issues " , so to me this proves nothing.


@ Bambino , just give it up man its like talking to a wall bro . His comments are about as useless as a screen door in a submarine. The guy obviously has his mind made up , but yet lacks to prove anything on this thread. The only thing he can add is that he is verry experienced with Dodge Neon. But then again how many honda guys out there say the same.
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peacockpirate
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:46 pm

I never made any references to it being that severe. I have seen lines damaged after years of e85 use, and not every neon I have seen the lines do that. So yes the e85 is able to go through the fuel entire fuel system and do it's damage. I simply posted pics of some damage done by e85 use just like you I am posting peoples experiences. I guarentee you have way more knowledge of cars than I do, but I am pretty familiar with the neon platform and yes they are "POS". The neons make very good power w/ e85 the only problem is the fuel system does'nt like it. I've also seen issues w/ stock inj and certain brand big injectors that just work like crap w/ e85. miamimagic ( the black .50t srt that most of you have seen out at the spot) had a set of injectors that worked like shit on e85. I can't remember which ones though.
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:52 pm

Google neon srt4 with e85 fuel sending unit.......lean back and see the massive amount of threads with people with broken fuel sending units due to e85....dont belive me...belive the interwebz lmao
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 2:56 pm

Stockness wrote:
Google neon srt4 with e85 fuel sending unit.......lean back and see the massive amount of threads with people with broken fuel sending units due to e85....dont belive me...belive the interwebz lmao

Dont get me wrong i belive you that there are units out there "not recomended for ethanol use " that will have failures. As a matter of fact some brush style pumps are not recomended for ethanol use . Was told dircetly by Weldon that their inline pumps dont like e85, it destroys the brushes in the pump electrical motor, but i never used it , took their word for it which im sure is just a CYA for them incase of pump failure, since normal pump 93 has ethanol. Well good debate guys im sure we have beat the horse to death lol! i have to get back to my ODIS training , oh by the way Audi will have a Flex fuel car next year using the same exact setup in the 2.0T they have now . They are keeping the same fuel system , weird hugh ?? scratch lol! The new sensor does in fact look very cool since they are now adding an Ethanol TEMPERATURE sensor , hmm i wonder why? . QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 171405
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 3:15 pm

yes and you are compairing the quality of parts on an audi to the quality of parts on a damn a 7-9 year old NEON. I'm sure that they are a little better than ours.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 5:23 pm

peacockpirate wrote:
Frank what year neon is it? Sockness does have retarded amounts of experience w/ neon/srt4s and works on them/gives repair advice on pretty much a daily basis. So he isn't just throwing nonsense out there. I haven't seen any first gen neons on e85 so i'm not sure how their fuel system will handle it, but the second gens fuel system does not last long. The sending unit goes bad on all of them. Sometimes it's the first fill up sometimes is months later, but it goes bad. I hang out at a pretty well known srt shop and i've seen the corrosion done to the rubber lines and the gunk that gets clogged in the injectors. There are some pics of guys that have used e85 and showed how nasty the injectors got I will try and find them to add further evidence. Frank I suggest you just stay with 87. I did put e 85 in my first gen once or twice and only like 1-2 gallons, but I would never suggest to daily it on that. With out an extrememly good tune the gas mileage will go to crap compared to what it is now and like u said it's not worth tuning a stock 2.0.


It's a 2005 2.0L 5 speed. the best shit i have ever own!! lol! 35k miles later and not even the brake pads i have changed yet. The best $1,300 dollars i have ever spent buying a car that i personally drive. Very Happy

lol! After seen those pictures you posted i will for sure stay away from that E-85 fuel


Last edited by TheCrusherCobra on April 11th 2012, 5:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 5:24 pm

s.e.a.n wrote:
bambinov8 wrote:
USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:

Not going to get into a pissing match with u.....me Srt guru? Well i do own The Florida SRT Forum for those pos neons .....so yeah i know a little about them....just ask Devin aka lilblkmachine or peacockpirate which is memeber here that goes by magic something ....... About those clunkers on.e85, i am out

What pissing match ? we are trying to help Frank make the correct choice. Everyone here posted there experience and view ,then you come in here with some " Ethanol will destroy everything , dont do it " comment , yet you fail to make any valid points. I think the one that should be done is me , since you make absolutely no sense.
agreed ! Only few people can really give proper info and most of them are the ones running the corn for years like myself n you and others .. I do recommend a acid neutralizer oil for a daily used flex fuel car ...E85 can be harsh on the oil

x2 e85 will thin out the oil you'll need to run something thicker.


over at Supraforums , some guys are actually getting their oil looked at by a lab and they are getting good results using Rotella T6 5w40 Synthetic. I use this oil , i have stock oil clearences but i do let my car warm up a bit before i drive/get under heavy load. I still do my regular 2500-3000 mile oil change , and it seems to be hold up better ( not looking so watered down ) then what i used to use which was mobile 1 , royal purple, and Amsoil. Plus its cheaper! Oil still has heavy smell of ethanol.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 6:01 pm

see I haven't heard of these issues w/ oil on the neons before. it might be something none of the guys on our forum have realized yet.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 6:06 pm

Ok to clarify some points:


1 - E85 will not break your sending unit, at least not in any chrysler vehicle. I worked as a heavyline mechanic at a dodge chrysler jeep dealer and have yet to see one fail because of this...truth is..most srt-4 owners remove the sending unit and do all kind of stupid things to it when upgrading fuel pumps, etc, and these fail but not because of the e85.

2 - You can run full E85, a neon has almost no compression and makes very little power, like I stated before, you can go very lean on e85 and still be able to go WOT and not knock. Besides, if you do run into some detonation the knock sensor will pick it up. I don't say put E85 on anything that makes more than 200hp and gun it because that's senseless.

3 - USMCWARVET you are correct, e85 is affected by cold temperature, I probably didn't get my point across...the guy is in south florida, we get e85 and not e70 all year long because temps never drop below 30degrees so "cold" issue of the fuel not igniting is not really an issue.

4 - The trick of running a resistor to fool the ecu is a double sided blade, this was used on the fbodies for ages to get 5 more hp. What happens is if you lower the inlet temp too much it will go out of closed loop and your fuel will be out of wack.

5 - the pics show only bad valve seals, which will cause oil to clog everything, ethanol will actually clean all of this up but heavy oil consumption will gum up and just stick.

6 - E85 will mix with the fuel but that's on cars that run very rich to cool things down, on a regular car just change the oil like you used to
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 6:12 pm

gatoasao wrote:
Ok to clarify some points:


1 - E85 will not break your sending unit, at least not in any chrysler vehicle. I worked as a heavyline mechanic at a dodge chrysler jeep dealer and have yet to see one fail because of this...truth is..most srt-4 owners remove the sending unit and do all kind of stupid things to it when upgrading fuel pumps, etc, and these fail but not because of the e85.

2 - You can run full E85, a neon has almost no compression and makes very little power, like I stated before, you can go very lean on e85 and still be able to go WOT and not knock. Besides, if you do run into some detonation the knock sensor will pick it up. I don't say put E85 on anything that makes more than 200hp and gun it because that's senseless.

3 - USMCWARVET you are correct, e85 is affected by cold temperature, I probably didn't get my point across...the guy is in south florida, we get e85 and not e70 all year long because temps never drop below 30degrees so "cold" issue of the fuel not igniting is not really an issue.

4 - The trick of running a resistor to fool the ecu is a double sided blade, this was used on the fbodies for ages to get 5 more hp. What happens is if you lower the inlet temp too much it will go out of closed loop and your fuel will be out of wack.

5 - the pics show only bad valve seals, which will cause oil to clog everything, ethanol will actually clean all of this up but heavy oil consumption will gum up and just stick.

6 - E85 will mix with the fuel but that's on cars that run very rich to cool things down, on a regular car just change the oil like you used to

BRAVO my friend well put , I think this is the one of the most informative Threads on SK !!
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peacockpirate
Intermidate Street Racer
Intermidate Street Racer
peacockpirate

Number of posts : 255
Age : 34
Location : P.Pines
Registration date : 2010-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 6:27 pm

gatoasao wrote:
Ok to clarify some points:


1 - E85 will not break your sending unit, at least not in any chrysler vehicle. I worked as a heavyline mechanic at a dodge chrysler jeep dealer and have yet to see one fail because of this...truth is..most srt-4 owners remove the sending unit and do all kind of stupid things to it when upgrading fuel pumps, etc, and these fail but not because of the e85.
2 - You can run full E85, a neon has almost no compression and makes very little power, like I stated before, you can go very lean on e85 and still be able to go WOT and not knock. Besides, if you do run into some detonation the knock sensor will pick it up. I don't say put E85 on anything that makes more than 200hp and gun it because that's senseless.

3 - USMCWARVET you are correct, e85 is affected by cold temperature, I probably didn't get my point across...the guy is in south florida, we get e85 and not e70 all year long because temps never drop below 30degrees so "cold" issue of the fuel not igniting is not really an issue.

4 - The trick of running a resistor to fool the ecu is a double sided blade, this was used on the fbodies for ages to get 5 more hp. What happens is if you lower the inlet temp too much it will go out of closed loop and your fuel will be out of wack.

5 - the pics show only bad valve seals, which will cause oil to clog everything, ethanol will actually clean all of this up but heavy oil consumption will gum up and just stick.

6 - E85 will mix with the fuel but that's on cars that run very rich to cool things down, on a regular car just change the oil like you used to

I like this thread to it is drama free and informational.

I do not agree w/ the highlighted section. On our forum we have a large amount of our stock turbo members on e85 and the majority of them have failed sending units. Something having to do w/ how corrosive e85 and damages the contacts for the sending unit. I attached a thread from the big srt forum showing several neons w/ these sending unit issues and they are not just because srt owners are altering the units. One of the mods for going over to e85 is upgrading our pump, usally to a wally 255. Thats the primary reason we need to drop the tank. Some guys do some rewiring w/ the fuel system, but whether that is done or not the unit can still fail. Not all fail there is just a large amount that do. I have a 95 so hopefully i'm good.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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