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PostSubject: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:15 pm

I put some E-85 gas in my neon last night mix with some regular 87octane to see if it could run and the car was running fine with no issues whatsoever. Then today went back to the gas station and put some more E-85 in it again, but this time with no mix or 87octane and the car still running good with no misfire nor any codes or check engine light coming on. So my question is! can i continue to use the E-85 fuel on my neon and i wont any mechanical issues with the car in the near future or should i stop using E-85 and keep using regular?

So any E-85 tuner out there that might want to answer this question for me please do.


Thanks.
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richevo
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:24 pm

I don't think you'll see the effects rightaway, but down the line you may have injectors, fuel pump damage..but I'm pretty sure someone in here would tell exatcly..if you use it for a while, and nothing happens.. keep us updated and I'll be the first one to do the same thing..lol
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:33 pm

Frank, why does it always have to be you to experiment???? lol! jk
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:34 pm

For sure... I was skeptical last night went i stopped at the shell gas station and my wife was driving the c230 bez which is premium or E-85 fuel drivable. I was like, Fuck it let me try this shit and see what happens, i told my girl do not lose site of me till we get home i do not want this shit to shut off on me in the middle of the Turnpike. LMAO.. But thanks god the car was running good the whole day back and forth and i am liking the money savings per gallon. Very Happy all I hope is that i can continue to use this shit fuel on my neon without nothing going bad cheers
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gatoasao
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:38 pm

You wont damage anything, but the stock paper filter might not be compatible with the alcohol and might clog up. The stock ecu will compensate up to 30% meaning your car will drive fine but you will not be able to start up in the morning right away like you used to.
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:47 pm

gatoasao wrote:
You wont damage anything, but the stock paper filter might not be compatible with the alcohol and might clog up. The stock ecu will compensate up to 30% meaning your car will drive fine but you will not be able to start up in the morning right away like you used to.

pretty much everything gato said , minus the last part . The cold start issue is big up north were temps get bellow 10*F . As for the myth of " pump and filter failure " there should not be an issue . We have been using alchol compatible materials since the early 90's . I have been running paper fuel filters for a long time on E85 without an issue. All gasoline has some ethanol content in it,as a matter of fact any synthetic rubber will have no problems with alchahol content.THe main problem people even see is corrosion from water in metal tanks( alchahol is hydroscopic ) , and maybe some sort of damage to 100% rubber material . If you stay with the Tier 1 fuel companies you should have no issue. Your fuel economy might not be so great depending what your ECU is doing with fuel trims. It might not be enough for you to see a gain in mpg/$$ in the end. But good experiment non the less this serves as an example that these oil companies have us by the balls with thier " myths " about alternate fuels.

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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:50 pm

cheers Thanks a lot i can live with that all day comparing the $4.00 per gallon i am paying right now for regular 87octane... Now thanks to you Gatoasao and USMCWARVET for telling me this very useful information all i am going to use in my neon now is E-85 to get to work and back home. I should see a total savings of $12 dollars every week i fill the fuel tank which is a total savings of $48 dollars per month in my end, and since i do not race or abuse this neon whatsoever the miles per gallon on regular fuel is 31 hwy and 29.9 city. So am good to go. I am swapping that filter tomorrow for an E-85 compatible. scratch If there exist one. lol
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 8:57 pm

TheCrusherCobra wrote:
cheers Thanks a lot i can live with that all day comparing the $4.00 per gallon i am paying right now for regular 87octane... Now thanks to you Gatoasao for telling me this very useful information all i am going to use in my neon now is E-85 to get to work and back home. I should see a total savings of $12 dollars every week i fill the fuel tank which is a total savings of $48 dollars per month in my end, and since i do not race or abuse this neon whatsoever the miles per gallon on regular fuel is 31 hwy and 29.9 city. So am good to go. I am swapping that filter tomorrow for an E-85 compatible.

If you want to take it a step further , see if you can find some sort of piggy back/AFC . You should be able to run the car real lean without an issue . The alchahol will help the cooling in the combustion chamber. Only problem is the car might make even less power than it does now. But if your are experimenting its worth a shot to save even more money. I would not do it on the Benz though. I have bee trying to do this for a while to prove that yes you can use E85 and not waste so much gas.

Think of it this way , when they make a flex fuel vehicle that produces 200hp on pump gas , that same vehicle needs to use upto 34% more fuel to make the same 200hp on E85. Now if you took the same car and made 200hp on gas but as soon as you switch to e85 your HP level decrease ( not so much that it has to work too hard ) but just enough to be foe fuel efficient with less HP. You can get more MPG with 100hp than you would with 200HP, well at least that is how i think it should work, But im no scientist and lol! so WTF do i know.
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 9:01 pm

TheCrusherCobra wrote:
I am swapping that filter tomorrow for an E-85 compatible. scratch If there exist one. lol

stainless steel filter if available should work.

here is a link to materials that are affected by alchahol .


http://www.dupontelastomers.com/crg/tlargiguide.asp


i have done a lot of research on the E85 "myths " and some light testing too. hope this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 10th 2012, 9:06 pm

Thanks again guys for the info. The C230 is already fuel flex E-85, at least thats what it says on the fuel cap. I don't know shit about these Benz... That damn thing comes with a 2.5L V6 25mls per GL... affraid I wish i could keep it, but i need to make that paper booboo.. lol!
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MIKE-HKS
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 12:44 am

OKKKKK ,if you need to save $12 a week you obviously don't make as much money as you say you do , Sk
if you want ill lend you my turbo diesel dually for a day ,afterwards youll fill that neon up with 93 premium every day with a smile ,
the e-85 gives you less MPG , i used it when it first came out on the wifes 325i bmw you get way less Miles to a full tank
eventually you will get a check engine light for a bad O2sensor
on the cars that are not e-85 ready the fuel pump, injectors ,and lines, are made out of different materials that rust
the alcohol creates water in your tank and when it sits it starts to rust the fuel system ,
on boats even regular 93 gas with 10% ethanol is bad , because boats sit sometimes for weeks, months ,
and the water it creates rust the fuel system ,
check this video out , 93 fuel with just 10% ethanol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo

to answer USMCWARVET comment to make it lean, its pretty simple to do ,most cars are equip with an air inlet temp sensor , you just have to find a .99cent resistor at radio shack that works for your application , telling your computer the air thats coming in is 200 + Degrees Fahrenheit , will retard your timing and create a very lean condition , same cheap trick if you want a bit more performance telling your computer the air coming in is 30 degrees below zero will increase your timing and make it richer

frank if you really want to save on fuel buy a smart car , or a TDI vw

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gatoasao
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:02 am

Ok, the morning startup is not about whether or not is cold. I'm telling you because I used to run my car on e85 way before I could ever tune the stock ecu. The way most ecu's work is they have a "preset" amount of fuel they will put out in the cold starts, this is not learned, but fixed and e85 needs huge amounts to start properly when the manifold is completely dry. When the car is cold i.e. in the morning, you will see that it probably takes a couple tries to startup and might act funny, check engine light might even come on depending on your application but if it does it will be random misfire or cyl bank 1 too lean, no big deal. As it gets hot it will kick into closed loop and everything will be fine. Your injectors might be too small for wot use but I don't think you'll damage anything if it's a stock relatively low power car.

What I meant about the filter is that the E-85 acts as an enema on your fuel system. Sure the paper is compatible, but I have found out the hard way that old filters tend to release glue used on them when they have used for some time, mostly on old cars. (I have a 90 road race integra at the shop right now that clogged 4 injectors due to a fuel change it didn't like) I'm not saying it will happen to you since most newer cars have no natural rubber on them, but after you run full e-85, just take the old filter out and put a new one of the same type. Enjoy the smell in the morning :)
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 8:48 am

If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 10:39 am

MIKE-HKS wrote:
OKKKKK ,if you need to save $12 a week you obviously don't make as much money as you say you do , Sk
if you want ill lend you my turbo diesel dually for a day ,afterwards youll fill that neon up with 93 premium every day with a smile ,
the e-85 gives you less MPG , i used it when it first came out on the wifes 325i bmw you get way less Miles to a full tank
eventually you will get a check engine light for a bad O2sensor
on the cars that are not e-85 ready the fuel pump, injectors ,and lines, are made out of different materials that rust
the alcohol creates water in your tank and when it sits it starts to rust the fuel system ,
on boats even regular 93 gas with 10% ethanol is bad , because boats sit sometimes for weeks, months ,
and the water it creates rust the fuel system ,
check this video out , 93 fuel with just 10% ethanol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo

to answer USMCWARVET comment to make it lean, its pretty simple to do ,most cars are equip with an air inlet temp sensor , you just have to find a .99cent resistor at radio shack that works for your application , telling your computer the air thats coming in is 200 + Degrees Fahrenheit , will retard your timing and create a very lean condition , same cheap trick if you want a bit more performance telling your computer the air coming in is 30 degrees below zero will increase your timing and make it richer

frank if you really want to save on fuel buy a smart car , or a TDI vw



Mike It's not about if i make good money or not, It's about being smart about how i spend my money, specially now days that u don't know if tomorrow you are going to be making more or less money. But anyways i got your point and your right about some things ur saying.

Gatoasao" was right about the starting up in the morning, since i didn't mix the fuel yesterday this morning when i got in the car and when to start it, it started up but like it was in it's last breath of fuel LOL but yea 2 sec later it got smooth and took off just fine, just one thing! it was smelling like baked beans early in the morning or some shit. lol!
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 10:48 am

MIKE-HKS wrote:
OKKKKK ,if you need to save $12 a week you obviously don't make as much money as you say you do , Sk
if you want ill lend you my turbo diesel dually for a day ,afterwards youll fill that neon up with 93 premium every day with a smile ,
the e-85 gives you less MPG , i used it when it first came out on the wifes 325i bmw you get way less Miles to a full tank
eventually you will get a check engine light for a bad O2sensor
on the cars that are not e-85 ready the fuel pump, injectors ,and lines, are made out of different materials that rust
the alcohol creates water in your tank and when it sits it starts to rust the fuel system
,
on boats even regular 93 gas with 10% ethanol is bad , because boats sit sometimes for weeks, months ,
and the water it creates rust the fuel system ,
check this video out , 93 fuel with just 10% ethanol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo

to answer USMCWARVET comment to make it lean, its pretty simple to do ,most cars are equip with an air inlet temp sensor , you just have to find a .99cent resistor at radio shack that works for your application , telling your computer the air thats coming in is 200 + Degrees Fahrenheit , will retard your timing and create a very lean condition , same cheap trick if you want a bit more performance telling your computer the air coming in is 30 degrees below zero will increase your timing and make it richer

frank if you really want to save on fuel buy a smart car , or a TDI vw


Thanks for the ressistor idea, but to comment on the thing i highlighted in red .
Ethanol per say does NOT create water , it absorbs it. We have been using ethanol compatiple materials since they started adding it to the pumps in the early 90's. But yes if you let it sit in the tank , like on the boat you mentioned you will absorb watter. Now the gastanks should be 100% sealed do to emission regulations so it should not be an issue. Venting of the gas fumes is long gone so we should have no issue with water absorbtion.

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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 10:58 am

gatoasao wrote:
Ok, the morning startup is not about whether or not is cold. I'm telling you because I used to run my car on e85 way before I could ever tune the stock ecu. The way most ecu's work is they have a "preset" amount of fuel they will put out in the cold starts, this is not learned, but fixed and e85 needs huge amounts to start properly when the manifold is completely dry. When the car is cold i.e. in the morning, you will see that it probably takes a couple tries to startup and might act funny, check engine light might even come on depending on your application but if it does it will be random misfire or cyl bank 1 too lean, no big deal. As it gets hot it will kick into closed loop and everything will be fine. Your injectors might be too small for wot use but I don't think you'll damage anything if it's a stock relatively low power car.

What I meant about the filter is that the E-85 acts as an enema on your fuel system. Sure the paper is compatible, but I have found out the hard way that old filters tend to release glue used on them when they have used for some time, mostly on old cars. (I have a 90 road race integra at the shop right now that clogged 4 injectors due to a fuel change it didn't like) I'm not saying it will happen to you since most newer cars have no natural rubber on them, but after you run full e-85, just take the old filter out and put a new one of the same type. Enjoy the smell in the morning :)

Yes i agree if the car is not set up for ethanol you should experience " cold " start issue regardless of climate. But i disagree to the point you make about it not being affected by weather conditions. Yes it will , reason why we mix the ethanol with 15% gasoline is because of that. Under low weather conditons ethanol is much more dificult to get a good flame propagation going. In a car not set up for ethanol yes like you stated it would be nearly impossible to get started on the first try.

As far as the glue i have not experienced it but it makes perfect sence if e85 does infact break down some types of glues. Yes the propper percautions should be taken with any upgrade or change in the fuel system. I for example completely cleaned my gas tank out, i run all SS line were i can and i use synthetic rubber for the areas i need some flex on the lines. But we all make valid points and we all can agree on one thing . Right now ethanol is not really an " alternative " fuel because of lack of research or horrible gas maillage and in the end Frank i really think you will not be saving much, i agree a diesel is the way to go. I guess the real question is WHY THE FUCK is deisel more expensive than gasoline when its actually a less refined fuel.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 11:00 am

Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.
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MIKE-HKS
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 11:28 am

Quote :
Mike It's not about if i make good money or not, It's about being smart about how i spend my money, specially now days that u don't know if tomorrow you are going to be making more or less money. But anyways i got your point and your right about some things ur saying.

i was just messing with you , i hear you , im in the same business you are , it gets harder every day .... and will only continue to get worst
back on the ethanol subject ,it really damages your fuel system if the parts are not made to hold the ethanol ,
i bought a boat last week ,that was sitting for a few months ,
bad fuel pump completely rusted , float,check valves , all stuck rusted , water separator fuel filter rusted ,
and that's with 93 premium that only has 10% ethanol

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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 11:34 am

It's going to start running stupid lean and might not have the proper amount of timing to ignite pure e85 after a few times he fills up. And remember e85 has been seen here to be more than 85% quite often too which is worse for a stock ECU car. I mean I don't know the fuel/timing maps on a stock car and every car is different on what it likes but that's my guess. And you're gonna have to change your oil a little more often as well. Stock components are fine as long as you don't let it sit and absorb water (condensation). Fuel filter stuff I'm unsure about but it'll be good to check.
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 11:38 am

MIKE-HKS wrote:
Quote :
Mike It's not about if i make good money or not, It's about being smart about how i spend my money, specially now days that u don't know if tomorrow you are going to be making more or less money. But anyways i got your point and your right about some things ur saying.

i was just messing with you , i hear you , im in the same business you are , it gets harder every day .... and will only continue to get worst
back on the ethanol subject ,it really damages your fuel system if the parts are not made to hold the ethanol ,
i bought a boat last week ,that was sitting for a few months ,
bad fuel pump completely rusted , float,check valves , all stuck rusted , water separator fuel filter rusted ,
and that's with 93 premium that only has 10% ethanol


well how long did it sit ? and how well is the tank sealed ? if this is on the boat you mentioned and it sat on a marina or in the water , im sure the absorbtion effect is to blame. I had a guy completely destroy 3 BOSCH 044's in the tank with E85. But he let the thing sit for like almost a year.
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MIKE-HKS
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 11:57 am

Quote :
well how long did it sit ? and how well is the tank sealed ? if this is on the boat you mentioned and it sat on a marina or in the water , im sure the absorbtion effect is to blame. I had a guy completely destroy 3 BOSCH 044's in the tank with E85. But he let the thing sit for like almost a year.
it sat for maybe 6 moths , on a trailer
but boat tanks are ventilated , not sealed like cars , but that was with only a fuel that contains 10% ethanol ..
the fuel where getting at the pumps suck , that goes for diesel to , the new diesel has no sulfur , so it has very little lubrication , results = bad injectors , bad fuel pumps , bad injection pumps , also gives you less MPG
its all about giving you lesss for your money
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Stockness
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 12:22 pm

USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.

Before u talk out ur ass make sure u can make a valid comparison...a lexus or toyota is not a neon!!!! I think i know a little about neons/srt4 to make my statement...just a little!!! Ask the 99% of srt4 or neon owners that have run e85 for sometimes how their sending units are doing then lmk....
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USMCWARVET
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 12:52 pm

Stockness wrote:
USMCWARVET wrote:
Stockness wrote:
If u continue to use e85 your fuel sending unit is going to take a shit.....not knowing how much gas u have in your talk FTL.....and those fuel rubber lines wont like e85 in the long run...

and this comment is just plain stupid and useless. You know that gasoline has 10% ethanol right ? i use it in my lexus and it has 200k miles on stock fuel system without an issue.

Before u talk out ur ass make sure u can make a valid comparison...a lexus or toyota is not a neon!!!! I think i know a little about neons/srt4 to make my statement...just a little!!! Ask the 99% of srt4 or neon owners that have run e85 for sometimes how their sending units are doing then lmk....

you are the one obviously talking out of your ass since you have "friends " that have had units fail. If you have some valuable info please share since you are some type of Dodge Neon SRT guru. Pics ? any debree from the tank ? and by the way Lexus is a Toyota smart guy.
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PostSubject: Re: QUESTION!!!????   QUESTION!!!???? I_icon_minitimeApril 11th 2012, 1:07 pm

Look i dont mean to come off as a dick or some sort of know it all , i just think that post that are pretty blunt like the one you wrote previous to my repply should be backed up at least with some sort of personal experience . The internet is full of BS posts on forums from guys who dont know shit from apple butter on the the subject ( not towards you ) . Try to keep the post informational as possible so guys looking for info can make a good choice. A lot of guys deem parts bad because of usser error or install, then they post it on the forum and BOOOM it spreds like wild fire and now X product sucks . For example Brian Crower products , a lot of guys bash it but never use it , they say they are china made stuff . When in fact most of the stuff they put out is build in house. And for arguments sake almost all manufactures out source their stuff to china , even the big name companies. People are just blind or too stupid to realize it. Here is good article on Ethanol compatible materials.

http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/downloads/Ethanol%20&%20E85%20Material%20Compatibility.pdf
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